Chapter_2

=//To Teach: The Journey of a Teacher//=

Chapter 2: Seeing the Student

In chapter 2, Ayers (2010) states, "the irony is that the students who tend to succeed in school learn in spite of--not because of--our treatments. And those who fail in school are subject to the most relentless and concentrated attack on their weaknesses--often to no avail" (p. 45). Definitely a strong perspective, and one that may (or may not) be shared by each of you. What are your thoughts, and what have you observed in your experience that leads you to those specific thoughts?

I have to look back at pages 43-44 when answering your question. I thought Ayers did a lousy job of defending a statement he made when referring to the notion of how a teacher may correct his educational deficiencies (deficiencies include taking French, repairing T.V.’s and refrigerators along with plating tennis). He states, “this entire entire (text error, who proofread this book?) attempt to fix me would likely make me feel bad and could well drive me completely away from school” (p. 43). I acknowledge that Ayers is making basic generalizations, but as a whole, my experience as an educator suggests that students love learning the unknown. I teach many subjects in which students have no formal background, subjects such as welding, woodworking, design engineering, digital electronics, construction, foundry, sheet metal, and machining. The curriculum is often distant for students and some even fear the equipment that is used in the course, however, I believe this fear and unanticipated curriculum is what excites and gives students a zest for new information and understanding. If we only taught to student strengths, I believe there would be serious limitations to the strengths our students possess. This rant provided by Ayers seems to be the building blocks of mediocrity. Something I have been pondering as I read this section is it more important to be a king of one educational endeavor or would it be better to be a jack of many? - Joe Bormann

I tend to see the accuracy in much of what Ayers states here, but I think people might be offended by terms such as "relentless" and concentrated attack". I'm not sure any educator views their own teaching as a "concentrated attack". So maybe there is some accuracy in the statement, but a bit challenging to get through in the cynical tone that Ayers takes? (Dr G)

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 * Joe, I completely agree that some students are motivated to learn the unknown and work beyond their strengths. From my experience I have discovered that some students are not afraid to be “fixed,” especially student-athletes. Many (not all) of these types of students appear to be fearless and want to learn something beyond their strengths. I know this type of learning has been encouraged by my school's coaching staff and I this past year. Currently the coaches and I have been guided to encourage kids to go above their ability and not be afraid to make mistakes. It's the time of their life to make some mistakes and learn from them. And isn't through making mistakes because we went beyond are strength a great and meaningful way to learn?**======

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 * When I read chapter 2 I feel torn. What Ayers says is somewhat entertaining and maybe even a little motivating. I did feel a little slap in the face, but I get what he is saying and their is merit to his ideas. I do find myself wanting to search for more of my own student’s strengths and see what happens when I teach to those characteristics. Who knows I could make huge gains with some of my students.**======

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 * However, I refuse to believe that students can go to seven or eight different classes a day, see seven or eight different teachers, and only learn in spite of the teacher or curriculum. Maybe I am young and naïve, but I believe teachers use too many useful strategies and interventions that cause students to learn not in spite of our treatments, but because they are motivated and engaged in what some teachers are doing in their classrooms. Still this does not dismiss the fact that all teachers must “see the student.” If teachers are not at least acknowledging the youth in front of them, how can they teach them? How would we “allow students their full humanity and stay alive as a teacher”** (as Ayers would say) **if we didn't at least look? - (Josh Saba)**======


 * Josh - no reply other than to say "well stated"! (Dr G)**

I hold firmly the belief that the teacher, not the student, is the primary variable in any given classroom, so I had a hard time at first understanding where Ayers was coming from. My takeaway was that our brightest are going to survive and thrive no matter what we do, but the rest of the students are at the mercy of our broken system. That's where teachers come into play. Did anyone else have a similar take away? - **Matt T.**

//Every year, When I start out with a new batch of 5th grade students, I purposely tell the 4th grade teachers not share any information with me about their previous students (my future students). I like to start out fresh and get to know the students first, without all the labels that students come with and what Ayers is talking about. But after about the 3rd week of school, I have formulated my opinions enough to know who is going to need extra help in certa////in areas. Opening up the student files and seeing the identification of these students is helpful for me. It gives me the tools I need in order to help give that student the best education possible. The labels are there to help the teacher teach this student with special needs. I don't see it as, "the most relentless and concentrated attack on their weaknesses--often to no avail." I agree with Ayers to get to know each of your students strengths, however, it is important for teachers to get to know their weaknesses, too. Part of a teacher's job is to focus in on the student's weakness and help them to understand, teach them how to be stronger. (Jeni Roadcap)//

After I got my new teaching position in Cedar Rapids, I asked my administrators what it was that made me stand out above the other applicants. It did not surprise me that they said that the two biggest aspects were my emphasis on building relationships with both students and staff and the other was seeing students as individuals and getting to know their strengths and weaknesses. My biggest criticism of coming into a new school is that other individuals like to push their “take” on students and other staff on to the new person in the building. Like Jeni, I like to enter into a new school year not knowing anything about my students. I want to formulate my own opinion and summary of my students and their abilities, strengths, and weaknesses. Like Ayers mentions, I like to be part detective….part researcher….and one part world-class puzzle master (p. 46). I feel that within the first couple weeks of the school year I am able to create a pretty clear image of the students in my classroom and what I discover is that I have about 110 individual students with a variety of strengths, weaknesses, and needs. I am able to understand what motivates my students, what engages them, what interests them, and what makes them do what they do in the classroom. Gone are the days of creating one standard assessment or assignment for all students. I recently created a unit assessment for all the 6th grade social studies students at our school and when I was done I had created five different versions of the same test for the wide variety of students in our classes. Taking the time to look deeper at our students will allow us to build a more well-rounded picture of our students giving us the ability to meet their diverse needs. (Joe D)

So Joe D, do you agree or disagree with what Ayers is saying in this chapter. Should teachers use labels for students?

I think I'm going to get in trouble on this one... I have 345 students in my classroom most of which I see 2 times on a 6 day cycle. That is if we don't have any shortened schedules, field trips that take students out of the building, or illnesses. When I was new to the building last year I went around to meet each classroom teacher and asked them about their classes. We do looping, so these teachers already knew their students pretty well. I'm not sure if that counts as exactly counts as 'labeling,' but to me it was a survival skill. Meeting 345 kids in two days is overwhelming and any heads up I could get from the classroom teachers made my first few weeks run a lot smoother. However, my band students have small group lessons once every six days, so I really get to know those students. I wish I could know more about each of my students, but the way my job is structured doesn't allow a lot of time for it. At my previous job I had a class period of 7th grade choir with 50 students in it (that met right after lunch). How on earth is one teacher expected to manage that many students? Get them to sing parts? Build a relationship with each one? Remember their names?

I saw relentless and concentrated attacks taking place when I taught at the middle school in my old district. Whether or not students could be in choir depended on their ITBS scores. If they were the "bubble" kids they were not allowed to take choir. Instead they were placed into a second math or reading class for the day. I was often approached by kids who really wanted to be in choir and I in turn would go to the administration/guidance counselors and they would say 'absolutely not.' I was always frustated that because of how a kid scored on a test on one day that they were forbidden from an activity that they would really enjoy such as choir for an entire year. They were being punished with extra of the class their score was lowest in. The kids did not view this as extra help to make them better at math or reading. Instead it was a stingma that followed them around the building. They were told they could join choir if their new ITBS score was high enough. Out of dozens of kids, only one raised their score and was allowed into choir. Is that what was best for the student or the SINA data? Why do we teach? To raise the test scores or to help the kids find some enjoyment in learning? Is there a way to do both? (Kerri)


 * So it's safe to say that your previous administration hasn't read much regarding the impact of Fine Arts on academics? Oh, guess I should be more 'politically correct'? ** (Dr G)

On p. 44, Ayers says "...we typically start in the wrong place. We start with what kids can can't do and don't know. It's as if we brainstormed a list for each of them as I did for myself....The curriculum is built on a deficit model; it is built on repairing weakness. And it simply doesn't work." I think W.A. is alluding to the traditional teacher vs. one who holds contents with a more constructivist teaching philosophy. As I understand constructivism, it is a framework for starting with what students currently understand and building from there. Anyone else see this connection? Okay, now on to DG's question about the quote on p. 45. I agree. Deadlines and late penalties are an example. Do the brightest students need these guidelines to succeed? I don't think so. The lower achieving students are the ones who tend to receive late penalties and not turn in work by our arbitrarily set deadlines. Seems a bit backwards to me. In my earlier years of teaching, **I focused primarily on the curriculum** and very little on students. I was mediocre at best, because I was like the teacher described...aiming for coverage rather than reacting to what students needed, knew and cared about. I saw teaching as a very linear process as Ayers suggests (p. 45). On p. 46, the author says teachers should be a detective, researcher and world-class puzzle maker. This reminded me that teaching is both an art and a science....and how stinking difficult it is! This entire chapter reminded me of the book we read last semester, //Hollowing Out the Middle//. Our schools tend to have a certain audience built in rather than truly embracing students of diverse backgrounds, a "hidden curriculum" of sorts. On the flip side, Ayers started really going off the deep end on p. 56 when he suggests letting students decide what they want to learn that year. I like the idea of getting students involved and becoming a part of the classroom's leadership/agenda, but reality for us sets in to a certain extent with local/state/common core curriculum mandates. - Matt T.


 * Matt **
 * Yeah, Ayers' gets a bit carried away regarding student choice. The premise is well versed; the reality is a bit more challenging. And yes, constructivism at it's core is all about learners constructing knowledge on their own and for themselves. (Dr G) **

I tend to believe that sometimes educators, including myself, need a little slap in the face to refocus us on why we became educators in the first place. I can even see Ayers point about students who fail having their weaknesses "attacked". Additionally, he makes some valid points about knowing your students and I completely agree with his statements about teachers wanting to know the full measure of their students, wanting to know what motivates them, and wanting to be more effective. (p. 46) That being said, I think Ayers is off the mark with this chapter. First of all, I don't beleive "that the students who tend to succeed in school learn in spite of - not because of - our treatments" (p. 45) Lets give a little more credit to teachers than that. Another thing I struggled with was his ideas about labeling students. I, like Jeni, start every year getting to know the students for myself and then look deeper into their labels, test scores, etc. Those labels can often times serve a great purpose in this system that we all work in. Those labels help our struggling students get additional help in areas that a general education teacher might not have expertise. Those labels can help that general education teacher know how to better understand, help, and know the student. As I stated earlier teachers want to know their students but do we really have the time and resources to go as in depth as Ayers suggests? (Erin Burmeister)

I agree Erin, as long as the 'labels' don't eliminate students from being allowed to take certain classes - right Kerri?! (Dr G)

Like many of you, I was a little stunned at Ayer's assertion that our best students learn in spite of us, not because of us and our lowest achieving students are victims of a concentrated attack on their weaknesses. He uses pretty strong language and seems to devalue the work that teachers are doing every day with difficult students. I can to an extent see where he is coming from, but feel that he is being overly critical in this regard. I do agree that most school curriculum is based on a deficit model, but I don't think this is as damaging as Ayers makes it out to be. Attempting to improve skills in areas of weakness is an important life-long skill for anybody that wants to achieve and maintain success. I tend to look at this from a coaching perspective. If you have a basketball player who is a good shooter but a terrible defender, wouldn't you try to find a way to help that person learn to become a better defender, and therefore a more complete basketball player overall? I do agree that kids need to have success in order to stay motivated, but a curriculum based solely on the interests of adolescents isn't entirely the answer, either. I think this is where skillful teaching comes into play, striking a balance between the things kids like and the things kids need to improve, and knowing how much of each is needed to help the student find success. I did agree with Ayers in that the best way to do this is to have a better understanding of the students themselves. I liked many of his ideas, but found them to be almost completely unrealistic for use at the high school level. 6 or 7 daily sections of 20-some students makes his ideas on individual student evaluation virtually unusable. I also had mixed feelings about the labeling aspect. I agreed with Ayers quotes that "labels are limiting" and that they usually "conceal more than they reveal" (p. 42). However, I also see usefulness in labels as long as they are used in the right way. It is helpful to me if I know in advance that a student has difficulty reading, has had difficulty paying attention in other classes, or seems to struggle on tests. Labeling doesn't always mean judging. If I can use that information to provide a student with a better learning experience and ultimately help them with their deficiencies, then the use of appropriate labels can sometimes lead to improvement. (Travis D.)

Travis You have hit upon many of the reasons I framed this question as I did. Ayers is critical here, and even a bit unrealistic. However, if his wording causes us to think critically about what we do, and about what we might see as principals, then those words are cause for thought. You make some great points and I appreciate the fact that good teachers will use "labels" to not judge, but to provide insight for student assistance. (Dr G). hmm, pink?

//Travis, I completely agree with your comments about “labeling” students. Yes, they can be harmful to students if used inappropriately, but I do agree that they are there to help students. The key is labels must be used appropriately and with the intent of helping students. (Whitney)//

William Ayers speaks of seeing the student. His claim is that students who tend to succeed in school learn in spite not because our treatments and those who fail are subject to concentrated attack on their weakness.

In some ways I agree with him, teachers have labeled students by their weaknesses. Teachers know students by their weaknesses even before we have a chance to see what motivates them, how they interact socially, and most importantly the best way they learn. Ayers says by putting them in programs based on their weaknesses only demoralizes the student. I do believe we need to find a better way to work on the strengths of each student. Teachers need to have a different approach for teaching. Inquiry is the answer, it allows students to draw from past experiences, students can work at their own pace, collaborate with others, and allows students to work within their strengths.

Lastly, Ayers hit a funny bone in my body by saying that most all teachers are teaching objectively constructing a lesson that is all linear and leaves no room for student discovery. What about a constructivist approach to teaching? Using Inquiry as a driving force! I might agree some teachers teach objectively, but for those who aren’t I don’t believe there is a better way than an inquiry approach. (Josh J.)

//Wow! Looks like I'm a little late to the dance here... Ayers' quote and context seem to be directed toward learning challenges and deficiencies by which we identify students. I have seen positive and negative results with such labelling. Negatively, kids identify with the labels and will use them as an excuse. In a co-taught Government class I heard on several occasions, "Hey, we're SpEd kids. That's way too much work for us!" The kids see themselves as limited in their ability and feel justified in using that limitation to do less and strive for less. I see a lot of those kids working in the community now, and sadly many of those low expectations seem to be carrying over into their careers. (A la one of the people groups mentioned in Hollowing Out the Middle). On the other hand, I saw several students who received the intended care and accommodations to which they were entitled and grow from those services. As a couple of you mentioned above, it was frequently the assistance of the special education teacher that helped the student see their potential and strive to reach it. One such young lady recently graduated with her Masters degree in Social Work and is presently helping low-income families in the Cedar Valley. I could give other examples of those who worked their way out of special education assistance and are presently working well in college or beyond. I see Ayers' point about labelling, but I can certainly find examples where labels helped students receive special assistance that put them on the road to success. (Rick)//

You're right Rick. There is soooo much more that goes into the negative vs. positive belief about labeling students. Loved that you referenced the special needs teacher that made a difference. Was thinking the same thing myself. So who else makes the difference? Parents, administrators, other teachers, etc.? All of the above! (Dr G)

Wow! How dare you give me NO credit at all in helping students learn and achieve. If that were the case, why am I even needed in the room? Anyone know of any openings in a higher paying job? Clearly I am not needed for our highest achievers or for that matter even those in the middle. Also what is clear is that those special ed teachers and anyone else that is staying until 5 (o'clock) or later trying to help willing students understand concepts can just go home at 4 because they are wasting their time! Mr. Ayers, how much is often? I find it hard to believe that we place effort to "no avail." What does concern me, and fairly regularly here at WM, is that we do spend so much time with those at the bottom and not enough time trying to raise the bar at the top. Why? Because our TAG instructor is only 7/8th's time? Because I can only challenge them so much while having my hands tied by those that need constant encouragement and instruction? I do believe the system is broken and although I do believe that I can have much success with bigger class sizes because of budget cuts there should be some good conversations about how we split up the classes and what our overall achievement goals are! (Aaron B.)

Thanks Aaron. Love it when students take a strong opinion and then state their own beliefs soundly and professionally. Guess you didn't agree with Ayers' here??? (Dr G)

I totally agree with your comments, Aaron B. We don't even have a TAG instructor so the teachers do their best to challenge the students within the regular classroom environment.

As far as my thoughts on this chapter, I found myself agreeing with some of the statements made about labeling students. My school is small and whether a teacher means to or not I believe we all create specific labels about students due to what other teachers may say or the snapshot behaviors we may pick up on while observing these students at lunch, on the playground, or in the hallway. In my classroom I, like everyone else I'm sure, have a wide variety of behaviors and academic abilities. I make a conscience effort to find the positives in every student and point these out to the students daily in the effort to make them all feel unique.

Quote from __TO TEACH: The Journey,In Comics__, "We all have things we're good at and other things we're learning to do better. The challenge is to see one another generously and whole rather than bit by behavioral bit." (Katie F.)

Great quote Katie; and very fitting! (Dr G)

For some of the students that come to Preschool, it is their first time in any type of structured setting away from home. I feel that I am an important part their success at the start of their school life. It is also an opportunity for me to get them early interventions if needed to also help them, hopefully, have less trouble as they move onto Kindergarten. (Amy)

Amy: I would agree that your current position tends to make this question pretty easy to answer and rebuff what Ayers is stating. So then I would follow that up and ask you whether or not his point is a bit more valid as students get older and progress through the education system? (Dr G)

Chp. 2 (Katie Owens)

Chapter 2, there was multiple things that caught my eye, but on page 41, “When we teachers look out over our classrooms, what do we see? This made me laugh because when you look at your first grade class you can see so much by looking at your students. I can totally gage my students attention spans. I have a couple of kids that I use as gages and I know that if they are done listening or working that we need to move on. It is so funny to see the students when they are completely engaged and into an activity. Or I can tell if they are off task that I did not give explicit enough directions. My little friends in my classroom are a busy bunch if I did not constantly look at my students to see what their body language is telling me, my room would be a zoo!

//I would like to address the issue of labeling first, as I both agree and disagree with Ayers. I agree with Ayers in the sense that labels can misrepresent the student’s true abilities, or only show their weaknesses, but the labels are there for a reason. When used correctly, they are there to help the students. I spend a majority of my day teaching reading to middle school students who are reading two, three, and even four or more grade levels below their peers and without “labels”, they wouldn’t be getting the help they need.//

//The second item I would like to address is Ayer’s quote from p. 45, "the irony is that the students who tend to succeed in school learn in spite of--not because of--our treatments. And those who fail in school are subject to the most relentless and concentrated attack on their weaknesses--often to no avail" I completely disagree with this statement. Maybe Ayer’s is speaking in generalities but if a student is given the appropriate instruction they can learn, I’ve witnessed this firsthand in my reading classes this year. Yes, successful students can learn in spite of our treatments, but not forever. I think, especially at the secondary level, we must focus on our high-achieving students and challenge them. (Whitney Bowen)//

Ayers definitely has a strong perspective, but I tend to disagree. All my training and experiences have been in the elementary level. When I see a student failing in school, my goal is not to attack their weaknesses. If I see a weakness my first thought is, “what can I do to get this student what he/she needs to become successful?” I get the feeling from Ayers that, as a teacher, I focus on that weakness and it doesn’t work. Really? I had a girl in class last year who struggled with reading. She was put into Title I and spent extra time after school. She has been on the straight A honor roll at the middle school all three quarters and is no longer in Title I. Her “weakness” in reading was focused on and now she is an excellent student in school. I do not attack weakness, but figure out ways to fix it. Does it work every time? No, but I have seen much more successes than failures. Now, could this be true at the high school level? Possibly, but at the elementary level a weakness becomes a teaching opportunity, not time to attack. (Derek Philips)